Wow Narkissos,
You're fluent, don't be offended but, you are a rare case for a french (they say that french don't spoke more than a language, as americans, often), congrats!
I know that some associate cynicism to Ecclesiastes. It was not Cynicism founded by I guy that lived naked in a isolated place (Diogenes), wich name has something to do with dog? I've always thought that it was to cynics that Rev. 22:15 was talking about...
I found interesting you views about that, but to be honest the Hebrews case sound more convincent for me, the Idea world of Plato are sometimes connected with the heavenly hope of christians.
Thanks!
PeLe, ThE Soccer King
JoinedPosts by PeLe, ThE Soccer King
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hello David,
You are right about Socrates, a ccording to Socrates itself (as written by Plato in Apology), it was God (or a god) that spoke to him in Delpho (that he was the wiser man in the earth) and that has motivated him to search for somebody wiser than him, and through dialetic method to teach others the value of a live in search for knowledge or virtue.
In doing this, as stated in another Plato dialogue (Phaedo) he was trying to disconnecto from the "world of senses" and gain a real immortality in connection (since in this case he would born again as a animal or so). Some say that Plato plagiated this ideas from Egypt, what do you think?
Regards,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hello Dan,
So... do you think Paul letters are not inspired while gospels and other books are?
Regards,
Anderson
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hello,
Just to share with you some answer I had from Jim Penton, the x-jw historian professor in another forum regards this issue:
" Not all philosophy is bad. In fact, there are many philosophers who defend Christianity. Therefore, I think what Paul was talking about was anti-Christian philosophy. And remember, Paul himself quoted Stoic philosophers when he found it useful to do so.
Nonetheless, it has to be recognized that much in the philosophical tradition, such as the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, has had a negative impact on Christianity. Yet it is impossible to keep people from wondering and speculating, the basis of philosophy. Therefore, as I have said below, it is better to understand philosophy and deal with ideas that one thinks are wrong rather than simply ignoring it and them.
Traditionally, the Witnesses and many others, with their anti-intellectual attitudes, have tried to come up with half-baked answers to many theological and scientific concepts that they don't even understand. For example, while I agree with them in a general way on the subject of the Trinity and cannot accept macro-evolution as spelled out in Darwinian and Neo-Darwinian terms, I find the Watchtwer's dealing with these subjects unintelligent to say the least. They really don't understand Trinitarian doctrine or the development of Trinitarianism. And as far as their attempts to get into the field of science and rebut evolution are concerned, they are bobos.
"Prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good."
Jim
Had the Watchtower sent some very bright young men and women on to first-rate universities to study Greek and Hebrew, archeology, theology, and something of philosophy as well as the sciences, it could have created a body of men and women who could have defended Christianity in a meaningful way, and it could have established its own colleges and universities as the Adventists have done. But no, it had to emphasize the preaching work and the dumbing down of the Witness community. The old boys who ruled the organization were a lot of old rubes who were afraid of education because it might have deluted their powers. What yahoos! "
What do you think?
regards,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hello serendipity (loved your nickname),
I believe not all philosophy are that bad, in my humble opinion Paul had objected some philosophical systems in its days (like epicureans or even platonism) but this systems evolved after apostles (for bad and good).
While the general spirit in philosophy still exists (i.e. speculative thinking, polemicism, skepticism sometimes and critical attitude over subjects) we can't deny the progress and contribution of the field for mankind for instance in LOGIC a part of philosophy that witness are suppose to use or even in cartesian views of the world or even Scientific methodology (episthemology), not to mention ethics (another thing vindicated for witness when they deal with patient rights questions).
Thats why I have been trying to understand some philosophical systems these days besides every advices contrary. P erhaps the main concern of witness about this has to do with critical reasoning, educated people that try to adopt a "socratic" or "dialetic" way to evaluate some of our polemic teachings simply are rejected as a critic or apostate and this is too bad.
Unfortunatly Jehovah's witnesses often loose some good thinkers and more important devoted and aproved by God that would contribute to improve theirs own coletive views in a free and dialetic atmosphere (thesis-antithesis-sinthesis), a better aproach than to have a monopoly of disagreement between some uneducated or naive brothers among a governing body.
Hugs,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hey David,
Nice to meet you.
Strictly speaking, they are in search for wisdom and not truth, some of them (philosopher) does not believe that it is possible to know truth. Anyway I enjoyed you analogy, a lot of answers for the same subject when you speak about God.
Best regards,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hey Narkissos,
Thanks for your greetings portuguese... Você fala em português?
I agree with you, it is everywhere, even in innocent terms like philosophy of life, logic and line of reasoning.
They that say a good stoic is a christian...anyway, where do you see cynism in gospels and Plato in Hebrews?
Best regards,
Pele
Bemvindo Pelé,
Nobody, I feel, can escape philosophy.
If you read the New Testament with some philosophical background you can detect influences everywhere. From Platonism in Hebrews, from Stoicism in Paul, from Cynicism in the Synoptic Gospels...
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hi Satanus,Thanks! What do you think about this issue? (Judging by your nickname you understand different viewpoints on the question) .
Regards,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Greetings from Brazil SAJE!
Thanks for your wellcome.
I'm an active witness, 30, married, from Brazil. I've served as a MS for some years, after have age to be appointed as an elder few years ago I decided to resign due to my job responsibilities.
I work as strategy business consultant in a so-called Big four company, a lot of travel and visit in different congregation but without the status of a CO .
In organization since 1987, believing in most of part in our theology but disagreeing with some policies. It will be a great pleasure to share with you all some thoughts.
Best regards,
Pele
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31
Christianity and Philosophy - Was it a good mix?
by PeLe, ThE Soccer King inhistory shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways.
some people like 18th century historian edward gibbons see similarities in plato trinity and nicean creed.
others have seen for instance, in plato doctrine of ideas (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
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PeLe, ThE Soccer King
Hello all,
History shows that philosophical thinking influenced theology and christendom doctrines development in many ways. Some people like 18th century historian Edward Gibbons see similarities in Plato trinity and Nicean creed. Others have seen for instance, in Plato “doctrine of Ideas” (that there is a perfect spiritual-like world where the ideal forms exists) or in soul immortality speculations a reference of some Christians future hope to be in heaven and not in material world in earth.
So, during my college days I was sometimes afraid about the "dangers" in philosophical thinking, sometimes alerted sometimes in Watchtower magazines pages or in talks in kingdom hall. For me, it seems clear that it was corroborated by the scriptures since the bible doesn't seems to put philosophy in a good view, yet Philosophy was very known in apostles times and that as we can infer in Acts, or even Corinthians and Colossians letters like in this scriptures in 1 Corinthians:
“18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.
22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24 however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men. “And in Colossians:
“8 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.”It always amazed me, how besides those alerts in bible protestant and catholic church doctrines was so influenced for philosophical thinking? Anyway, the world is not the same as in apostle days and philosophical thinking has evolved in many branches today. So my question for YOU friends is:
(i) Is philosophy that bad?
(ii) Did philosophical mergers with theology contributed positively for our understanding of God’s purposes or it improperly mixed light with darkness (1 Corinthians 6:16)?
(iii) Do you think that in your own views about God, Man, Future hope, sometimes you think in "Greek" and not in "Hebrew"?
Best regards,
Pele